These are my random musings. Hopefully they will be witty, insightful, and frequently updated.
Feigning Outrage on Behalf of Gitmo Detainees
Published on January 8, 2007 By singrdave In War on Terror
From the Chicago Tribune, January 5, 2007:

Consider The Irony Of Guantanamo Bay

By Thomas P. Sullivan


What an irony, what a contradiction! Although the trial may have been flawed and the execution precipitous, the Iraqi government afforded a mass murderer, Saddam Hussein, basic rights before judgment was pronounced. Hussein was presented with written
charges, provided the assistance of lawyers, the government was required to introduce proof to support its charges through competent witnesses, whom his lawyers were permitted to cross-examine, and he was allowed to produce evidence in his own defense.

Compare this to the way our government has handled the cases of more than 400 men, most of whom have been held almost five years in a prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Not a single one has been given a hearing at which the government has been required to
produce evidence explaining why he is being held, or had the assistance of a lawyer, or an opportunity to produce evidence in his own defense. No so-called classified evidence has been revealed. No independent judges have presided.

It now appears clear that virtually none of these men will ever receive these kinds of trials. United States officials have announced that only a handful of the prisoners will be tried before the newly created military commissions, while the others will continue to languish indefinitely in their tiny cages.

Army and Navy brass have become accessories to this scandalous state of affairs by continuing to claim that the prisoners are dangerous, the "worst of the worst," as though this provides justification for continuing to jail them without hearings. Even more
shameful, a congressional majority mindlessly succumbed to White House pressure by voting to deprive the prisoners of the right to seek relief in federal courts.

It has been argued that "military necessity" precludes providing legal protections to the prisoners and that to do so will interfere with conduct of the "war on terror." But these men are not held on or near a battlefield. They are isolated on a remote island; almost
none has been questioned within the past two years; they no longer have unplumbed "intelligence" value.

The cost to maintain this prison, and the need to provide round-the-clock supervision, is clearly inconsistent with our national interests. Far better to charge and try those where there is solid evidence they committed punishable offenses and release the others without further delay, expense and diversion of military and civilian personnel. Those found guilty should be sentenced appropriately, and those not charged or found not guilty after trial should be returned to their native countries. The least we should do for them is what was done for Saddam Hussein.

Refusal to afford due process of law to these men is a national disgrace. If compliance with fundamental principles is insufficient to motivate our leaders--if they require selfish reasons to move them to action--they should bear in mind the precedent they are setting
for how other nations may treat our citizens taken into custody abroad.

Thomas P. Sullivan, who represents a number of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, is a partner in the law firm Jenner and Block and was co-chair of the Governor's Commission on Capital Punishment. He was the U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Illinois from 1977 to 1981.

My response to Mr. Sullivan:

Consider this: Your average hajji imprisoned in Gitmo is not Saddam Hussein.

Lots of people go get Starbucks every day, but when Jennifer Aniston does it makes front page headlines. Fame has its privileges.

Saddam gets held to a higher standard of justice than your average hajji. And you're outraged, or even surprised by this, Mr. Sullivan? This is the way the world works.

Comments (Page 1)
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on Jan 08, 2007

Mr. Sullivan,

POWs or enemy combatants are not to be tried under the laws of the land.  That is against the Geneva Convention.  And your precious courts have already ruled, that pursuant to the Geneva Convention, they can be held until the cessation of Hostilities.  Has Al Qaeda surrendered yet?

on Jan 08, 2007
What gets me about this guy is that he feels so strongly about Gitmo detainees... because he's paid to represent Gitmo detainees.

That's like a celebrity saying my publicist is my best friend and mean it literally.
on Jan 08, 2007
He doesn't bother me at all. He is supposed to give his clients the best and most vigorous defense he can mount (not by their rights but rather his obligation under the Bar). He is doing so. I oppose his views but he would be wrong to not try this tactic.
on Jan 08, 2007
He doesn't bother me at all. He is supposed to give his clients the best and most vigorous defense he can mount (not by their rights but rather his obligation under the Bar). He is doing so. I oppose his views but he would be wrong to not try this tactic.


Very true. And the reason I could never be a lawyer. I cant argue out of both sides of my mouth on an issue. Either I believe it, or I do not.
on Jan 08, 2007
Has Al Qaeda surrendered yet?


Funnily enough under the Geneva conventions the US is supposed to grant POWs a monthly advance of pay. I wonder what the going rate for terrorists is? If al-Qaeda don't surrender it might add up! Would this constitute financing terrorists?

And what happens when the war does eventually end (assuming it does)? do the POWs get released? Might it be the only left in captivity are those that end up subject to the military commissions. Whereas the majority that won't be subject to the commissions are let go?
on Jan 08, 2007
He is supposed to give his clients the best and most vigorous defense he can mount (not by their rights but rather his obligation under the Bar).


But the Bar is not forcing him to defend scumbags. (unless I missed something, and this is a mandatory pro bono defense) I have met the occasional lawyer (admittedly rare) that dropped a client because they were so downright scuzzy, that they didn't feel they could morally defend the person as innocent, even as part of their profession. Of course, most I've met would defend Hitler as being innocent and pure as the driven snowif they could charge him by the hour.........

By the way, how's it going, boss? You haven't blogged anything personal in a while.
on Jan 08, 2007

Funnily enough under the Geneva conventions the US is supposed to grant POWs a monthly advance of pay. I wonder what the going rate for terrorists is? If al-Qaeda don't surrender it might add up! Would this constitute financing terrorists?

And what happens when the war does eventually end (assuming it does)? do the POWs get released? Might it be the only left in captivity are those that end up subject to the military commissions. Whereas the majority that won't be subject to the commissions are let go?

Good Questions.  Got any answers?  Seriosly.

on Jan 09, 2007
And what happens when the war does eventually end (assuming it does)? do the POWs get released? Might it be the only left in captivity are those that end up subject to the military commissions. Whereas the majority that won't be subject to the commissions are let go?


According to what I know of the laws of land warfare POW's must be returned to the country they represented during the war. Illegal combatants on the other hand can be shot on sight, or given a trial. With our courts designating illegal’s as pow's we will be forced to free them as soon as a peace treaty is signed between the government of the United States and the Government of Al Qaeda. Oh wait, AQ is not a recognized nation state and therefore not covered by the Conventions, they have no country to return them to. I guess we have to kill them or make them Americans or keep them locked up until they have a country we can return them to. This could get interesting.
on Jan 09, 2007
But the Bar is not forcing him to defend scumbags. (unless I missed something, and this is a mandatory pro bono defense) I have met the occasional lawyer (admittedly rare) that dropped a client because they were so downright scuzzy, that they didn't feel they could morally defend the person as innocent, even as part of their profession. Of course, most I've met would defend Hitler as being innocent and pure as the driven snowif they could charge him by the hour...


It's unfortunate that men like Mr. Sullivan only present one side of the situation - their own.

The differences between the Club Gitmo crowd and Hussein seem pretty clear to this lowly grad student - so I'm puzzled why a practicing and licensed attorney cannot understand the differences between their respective situations.

Saddam was afforded the legal processes he was because Saddam was the recognized leader of a recognized State captured while on the field of battle in uniform and in open possession of small arms weapons. By GCIII Standards - he was a lawful combatant. Thus he was afforded a trial and sentenced.

Compare this to the various non-state (and non-citizen) actors taken into custody while engaged in the illegal occupation of a recognized State and as unlawful combatants engaged in hostilities against an internationally sanctioned coalition of some 40+ nations operating with U.N. approval - and these were also engaging or supporting terrorist activities and as such were in violation of a U.N. Resolution. According to Geneval Conventions, unlawful combatants can be held until end of hostilities. It seems that Mr. Sullivan would prefer to try this in the court of public opinion and force that Constitutional Rights be afforded to his clients.
on Jan 09, 2007
According to Geneval Conventions, unlawful combatants can be held until end of hostilities. It seems that Mr. Sullivan would prefer to try this in the court of public opinion and force that Constitutional Rights be afforded to his clients.


While prisoners of war can be held until the end of hostilities, the Genenva Conventions are silent on unlawful combatants, simply because they are not contemplated for. This the crux of the issue.

On the one hand the US Government says they are unlawful combatants, and can be held without rights afforded prisoners of war, simultaneously making up law that it feels should apply to them, simply because in their opinion there is no law at the moment.

On the other hand lawyers like Mr Sullivan and other human rights groups say that, according to international law, if you are not a prisoner of war, then you are a civilian, and afforded some protections under GCIV (depending on your circumstances).

The US government can't accept they are POW's, as they don't satisfy the definition. Nor can they accept they are simply detained civilians. So they must go for this middle gound, which is nebulous, and fraught with controversy, because there is no clearcut law.

Good Questions. Got any answers? Seriosly.


Nope. As I said, nobody really thought about this situation when the Geneva conventions were setup. It plainly requires some legislative solution, but now with a Democrat controlled Congress, GWB might be hard pressed to get the legislation he needs.

The other issue is that plainly one size does not fit all. Even the govt realises that with some going to get charged by the tribunals and others not. Since some detainees weren't picked up on the battlefield, is there some kind of mechanism to determine how the detention of these people is justified? Or do they just languish indefinitely in Guantanamo if not selected for trial by tribunal?

I don't really think there will be any quick resolution to this. And it is simply beyond the realms of possibility for both Mr Bush and Mr Sullivan to be satisfied by the same resolution.
on Jan 10, 2007
{Darthsilliness: The US government can't accept they are POW's, as they don't satisfy the definition.Nor can they accept they are simply detained civilians.So they must go for the middle ground, which is nebulous, and fraught with controversy, because there is no clearcut law.}

Forgive me, my American friends, for I know how you feel about the people in Gitmo, but--BUT, I would like to say three things here:

1. The US does not want to apply the rules of the Geneva Convention because they do not consider these prisoners as POW's
2. The US does not want to try these people in a civilian court because they believe the men are not civilians.
3. The US, in its naivety, does not believe it is denying people of its human rights , simply because the US says these men are terrorists and have no human rights.

OR DO THEY HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS? It does not matter. The USA, in some way or another, is able to (I can't say legally), connive a way of keeping these men in Gitmo.

These men may be terrorists and some should probably swing,but why are they left in Limbo-land, a new Siberian salt mine? Because the USA says it should be so.
Come on men, some say the war on terror could last another twenty years! Does it take twenty or more years to garner intelligence?

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THEM?
on Jan 10, 2007
The USA, in some way or another, is able to (I can't say legally), connive a way of keeping these men in Gitmo.


I think Darth addressed that. Simply put, it is not illegal, as there are no laws (other than the law of spies) that govern them.
on Jan 10, 2007
OR DO THEY HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS? It does not matter. The USA, in some way or another, is able to (I can't say legally), connive a way of keeping these men in Gitmo.


Well they do have some rights. Until their POW status is determined, they must be treated as if they were in fact POWs. And even if they are subsequently determined not to be POWs, they are at least guaranteed the minimum humane protection under the Geneva Conventions (this provision is for civilians, but is extremely broad). This includes a fair trial (note however the right exists only if they go to trial, if the US chooses not to try them, they appear not to be entitled to it).

For those that do get a trial under the military commissions, it must be fair (per the Geneva Conventions), and they seem to get the right of appeal to civilian courts. However the US Government has retained the right to detain indefinitely even those acquitted by the commission.

For those that don't go to trial however it seems they have no further rights than those I've set out above. They also don't seem to get a right of appeal from the combat status review tribunals or even for habeas corpus, both being prohibited by the Military Commissions Act.

The USA, in some way or another, is able to (I can't say legally), connive a way of keeping these men in Gitmo.


I think Darth addressed that. Simply put, it is not illegal, as there are no laws (other than the law of spies) that govern them.


Its seems their detention is neither legal nor illegal. I think Mr Sullivan's view is, put another way, the onus should be on the government to act within the laws of the land (due process and all that), rather than take advantage of a lack of law.
on Jan 10, 2007
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THEM?


Eat them?

~Zoo
on Jan 10, 2007
Its seems their detention is neither legal nor illegal. I think Mr Sullivan's view is, put another way, the onus should be on the government to act within the laws of the land (due process and all that), rather than take advantage of a lack of law.


That was the law he was trained in after all. One cannot fault him for imposing his law on the area that is lawless.
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